Dr. Frank's What's-it

Well, the Catholic Church has a whole legal system within itself, to police itself and its membership on matters which are pertinent to Catholics. We'd all have been better off if lay people had made better use of it for the last 30 years. Kerry can belong to any private organization he wants to, and if he violates the rules of that private organization repeatedly, that private organization, following its own procedures, may terminate his membership. I don't see the problem.

well its kind of like that golf club not allowing female members. kind of moot point since it is a private club, not a public institution. they can allow or dismiss whomever they like.

All right, you all can pretend it's not funny or weird to try to institute legal procedures to have a presidential candidate declared a Heretic. It still sounds farcical and Pythonesque to me, though.

If the church kicked out all the Catholics who hold ambivalent views about the advisability of outlawing all abortions, or those who have ever voted for a pro-abortion candidate for public office, they'd be getting rid of at least half their parishoners. And in my own parish in Oakland, they'd probably have to kick nearly 100% of them out. Or declare them heretics and have them burnt.

The collection would suffer. That's no way to run a religion.

Dr. Frank,
Whoa thats a complicated issue there. I'd have to agree though that its both weird and funnny. I can sortof see both sides. Just because Kerry voted pro-choice doesn't mean that he is pro abortion. Some of the anti-abortion laws Ive seen try to be passed are very sweeping in the other rights that they tend to restrict. Plus, just like christians believe that God gives them a choice to follow Him, Kerry may believe that abortion is a choice in the same regard.
On the other hand, it is sortof false advertisement if Kerry is using his religion to gain votes (intentionally or no). I know a lot of Catholics who will vote for him just due to religion. If he/she is a member of a group and is using that group to promote themselves, it should be the groups desicion to allow him/her to do so, especially if that person is violating one of the groups key issues.
meh. ill vote for him just the same.

There's catholic republican politicians who are pro arbortion but somehow communion doesn't seem to be a problem for them. Giuliani comes to mind.

Isn't the death penalty a no no with Rome, too? No prob there, either.

You know, I'm beginning to think this heresy charge against Kerry might be politically motivated.

My God, div, don't be such a cynic! John Kerry totally is a heretic. He turned me into a newt, but luckily I got better.

The problem, from a Catholic point of view, is not that Kerry is "ambivalent" about abortion, or voted for someone that supported it; the problem is that he, as a person with political power, uses said power to keep abortion legal.

While in purely political terms this is of no great importance at all, it does rather conflict with Catholic doctrine on the matter (which is that abortion is not tolerable, more or less), and his active support for such an action is grounds for suspension of communion. (For the reason that such active support is sinful, and taking communion while in a state of sin is an even worse sin, so communion is withdrawn to prevent the sinner in question really pissing God off. For his own good, as it were.)

Lastly, "heretic" is not "witch". Witches don't exist, in the classic sense of people who use Satanic Power To Do Bad Things. Heresy is an utterly unrelated category (defined as "ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas" - in other words, not agreeing with the church about matters of religion), and one that has a strict definition and strict set of guidelines for proof.

There really are heretics, to any given religion that accepts the concept. There aren't any witches in the relevant sense. Whether or not we think heresy matters at all is irrelevant; the Church does, by definition. And if Kerry really is Catholic, he should care, too, even if he disagrees.)

(PS. No, I'm not Catholic. But I think it's important, if we're going to talk in a serious context (and, all Python jokes aside, this is "serious", isn't it?) about Catholic politics and dogma, to do so seriously and with an understanding of what they're actually talking about and why they think what they do.)

I think we're missing the point Frank was making: "So if he weighs as much as a duck, he's made of wood, and therefore... "

DECOY!!!!!!! DECOY DECOY DECOY!!!!!!

I'll take this seriously when similar suits are filed against Republican politicians who vote to keep the death penalty legal - or, indeed, sign the death warrants in cases of executives, certainly a far more direct violation of doctrine than anything Kerry has done.

Otherwise, this deserves as much derision as anyone can come up with.

Well, Sigivald, I suppose you could say that voting isn't exercising political power. I do think ambivalence when it comes to the politics and ethics of abortion, particularly as to the practical effects of legislation, can be relevant in how Catholics vote, however. Is it impossible to imagine that even someone who accepts Rome's position on abortion without reservation might nonetheless feel that voting for George W. Bush might not be in his interest, even though he is nominally the anti-abortion candidate? Not for me. So we don't excommunicate him because he's not a Senator. But how far down the chain of representative government should we go in applying the excommunication sanction for inappropriate voting?

I'm aware that there is a difference between heresy and witchcraft, but exposing and pursuing heretics who may be running for president is not, in my experience, a major concern among ordinary Catholics. That is, I very much doubt that the burning desire to have Kerry declared a heretic and excommunicated is a widespread or typical cherished dream for most American Catholics. Sounds like a fringe of wackos to this Catholic, anyway.

OK, Sigivald, let's excommunicate all the Catholic governors who've signed death warrants, and all the Catholic politicians who support the US having nuclear weapons. Both of these contradict Catholic doctrine. Frank, can you fill out the paperwork and hand it in to your priest?

I'm sure the Church's attitude about this is that they don't want individual parishoners filing suit to force the Church hierarchy to excommunicate anyone, or probably to do anything else of significance. I have no idea what this lawyer's rights are under canon law, but I'm sure the Church has its own plans on what to do with Kerry and this guy's effort to get the Church to officially and publicly condemn Kerry to eternal damnation probably isn't part of the plan.

"And in my own parish in Oakland, they'd probably have to kick nearly 100% of them out. Or declare them heretics and have them burnt.

The collection would suffer. That's no way to run a religion."

Yeah, Frank, but imagine how much they could pull in if they sold tickets to the mass burning...

People: I already covered that death penalty thing way up there. I was conciser at it, too. Credit where its due.

In re the Kerry/ heresy thing, I'm thinking, you put a long bushy beard on the guy, grow the hair a little, long boots, peasant's blouse and: he'd be a dead ringer for Rasputin. What does THAT tell you?

Yeah, I know he was Russian orthodox but to us Jews all youse guys are the same. I mean really- ooh, they make the sign of the cross with 3 fingers, we do it with two, ooh, we're so much better. Gimme a break over here with that shit.

"Or declare them heretics and have them burnt."

Or build a bridge out of them.

There's some dude at my parish who has this bumper sticker on his car that says "You CAN'T Be Catholic And Support Granholm". This bumper sticker pissed me off mainly because I didn't think it made for a horribly clever or memorable slogan, although it did seem to leave some sort of lasting impression on me. Luckily, Granholm just passed her new cigarette tax, so I now hate her and don't have to worry about this random guy at my parish accusing me of heresy. Jennifer Granhom, who is another pro-choice Catholic politician, made quite a big fuss amongst certain Catholics here in Michigan. The priest at my parish even got angry letters from parishioners who were mad at him for not telling the congregation to not vote for Granholm. But I kind of have a soft spot in my heart for religious wackos, even though I would hardly consider myself one.

Frank: Well, Bush isn't a Catholic, so he can't be excommunicated. I'm not aware of the Church suggesting that Catholics vote only for anti-abortion candidates, or at least suggesting any penalty for not doing so.

Div, Nick, Jason: Last I checked "the death penalty" is not actually forbidden by Catholic doctrine. (See here, relevant excerpt from about halfway down: "The infliction of capital punishment is not contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church, and the power of the State to visit upon culprits the penalty of death derives much authority from revelation and from the writings of theologians. The advisabilty of exercising that power is, of course, an affair to be determined upon other and various considerations.
". Where did you get the idea that the Catholic Church was doctrinally opposed to capital punishment? It simply isn't.

Now, if capital punishment was contrary to dogma, there'd be a case for excommunication or heresy proceedings against political figures who gave material support to it. But since the Church doesn't condemn it, it's a non-issue.

(I repeat, I'm not a Catholic (or even Christian). But it's useful, when criticising the Church, to actually know what it says (as religiously-binding dogma) about the subject, and why, you know? Just as when one is arguing for or against, say, abortion, it's useful to know the actual position and reasoning of whichever side you're arguing against, rather than a caricature or straw-man version of the same.)

What's your source for that quote, Sigivald? Here's an official source, Catholic News, on JPII's opposition to the death penalty:

http://www.cathnews.com/news/312/10.php

also, here

http://www.cathnews.com/news/303/52.php

"He [Archbishop Renato Martino, head of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace] stressed the importance of defending human life from conception until natural death, as reflected in the principles discussed in the encyclical Evangelium Vitae, according to Vatican Radio."

Or nuclear deterence. Church leaders have clearly spoken out against the morality of nuclear deterence:

http://www.nuclearfiles.org/etreligiouspers/catholicbishopssondemn.html

and

http://www.zero-nukes.org/religiousstatements2.html

Part of the original Bishops statement reads, "We do not perceive any situation in which the deliberate initiation of nuclear war, on however restricted a scale, can be morally justified." Bush, along with many American politicians, refuses to endorse a "no first use" policy.

And you're right, the Church can't take action against Bush, but it could tell the laity not to vote to candidates who support the use of nukes or of the death penalty. When Giuliani ran for Senate, did the Church threaten to withhold communion from him?

If Mr. Kerry wants to be a public Democrat and Catholic he should know that he will undergo alot of scrutiny because he stands for things that are VERY against the beleifs of the Catholic church. The church has every right to deny him communion.